interview video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsN2dbHaIyU
Morgan: Today i have the privilege of interviewing prima ballerina Tracy Li, she is a native of Hong Kong, and joined the Hong Kong Ballet and then left for Durban, South Africa in 1992, thereafter, she moved to Capetown. Today i will be discussing with her the knowledge and experiences she has gained in her successful ballet journey.
*Sitting down*
Morgan: thanks for joining us, can you share with us some of your fondest memories of dancing in hong kong?
Ms. Tracy Li: well, in hong kong, i would say it would have to be my first performance ever with the Hong Kong Ballet, and it’s always start with the Nutcracker, of course, so I was one of the little girls, and it was absolutely exciting and a magical moment
Morgan: i danced with – i was one of the extras in Hong Kong Ballet – i think it was Le Corsaire, and i had a lot of fun
Ms. Tracy Li: were you running around and doing the stage (holding props and stuff), actually, you know what, I was the flower girl when i was much younger, i remember going onto stage presenting the flowers during curtain call, for beautiful principal dancer, that was also very special now that you have mentioned that.
Morgan: yeah for me I was more like a moving background
Ms. Tracy Li: but we all start like that. i started off with a flower girl now that you’ve reminded me actually
Morgan: so what drew you to South Africa?
Ms. Tracy Li: it was mainly from my ex artistic director Garry Trinder, he kind of saw me once when i was about thirteen and then he took me under his wing, so obviously, i was too young then, so I got a scholarship and went away and came back and then he literally just said “Tracy, here’s a contract, come and join the company” and i think i was really like the youngest one, ever joined Hong Kong Ballet when I was barely sixteen years old. and then he kept mentoring me and he has given me a lot of opportunities and by the end he got the artistic directorship in Durban, so he basically also said “Tracy would you love to come?” and then he also had offered me the opportunity to make my debut as Juliet in Romeo and Juliet
Morgan: that’s cool
Ms. Tracy Li: that’s very exciting.
Morgan: I think I’ve seen him once because he’s judged two competitions that I’ve participated in in Hong Kong
Ms. Tracy Li: Yes, he liaise with Hong Kong quite a few times and he’s also very popular as a judge internationally as well,
Morgan: yeah he was talking about how we should lessen the glitter on our makeup because it takes away from the performance
Ms. Tracy Li: he has a lot of wisdom, i think i made it as a dancer mostly because of him, i still – you know what – at the end of my career, my very last performance, i still have his voice in my head while i was dancing, he always said to me “you are tiny in height” and i have to expand myself i have to make myself look like i’m six foot tall, when i’m like this little so he’s taught me a lot about expanding myself and making myself look more expansive, and more effectively to project your emotion instead of being dancing in a box, he really has made me dance really big and grand.
Morgan: but now with zoom, you kind of have to dance inside the box.
Ms. Tracy Li: yes but your emotion can still be good to be quite big and like quite massive actually you have got to give a lot more so that on the other side they can receive it.
Morgan: so what do you think is the most common misconception about dancing in South Africa?
Ms. Tracy Li: hmm, i think mostly people still don’t believe that South Africa is a very civilised place, and they still think it’s slightly undeveloped they will relate South Africa to yellow soil with like some animals running around, and a lot of people still think it is like that. so i guess people would think “what is the standard?” you know? but in fact, if I go a little bit back in history – not that i know it very well, but I know that they’re very heavily influenced by the British, and their arts and culture are very rich from the old days, so as far as i’m concerned – and it was actually quite hard to win the audience’s hearts, because they used to have (Margot) Fonteyn and (Rudolf) Nuryev and all these big ballet stars that toured to South Africa and they’re very used to that kind of caliber of dancers in the old days in the 70’s which is wayyyy beyond you, and so they know what the standard is about and that whole generation of audiences, their expectations of what you deliver onstage is really high. but like, people from outside South Africa don’t quite get that.
Morgan: so what were your friend’s and family’s reactions when you said you were going to be in South Africa?
Ms. Tracy Li: mixed. very, very mixed. it yoyo’s up and down. some people say ‘no don’t go!’, they literally would want to like bribe me to stay behind, but like for myself i was just so excited to be able to go abroad and just have something new, you know, so also I felt very safe because I was following my ex-artistic director Garry Trinder, so I know that I AM going to be in safe hands. so I was excited, my family were all very supportive, it’s just some of the friends – they were worried, like now they have been to South Africa and they just love it and just kept wanting to go back to visit.
Morgan: so how did you win over the audience in South Africa?
Ms. Tracy Li: hmm, well i think first and most foremost is really dedication and hard work – that goes without saying and i do have a very funny story to tell you, i mean in my advantage is that i think i was the first oriental dancer that has joined the company so i was really fresh and i was literally just about 19/20 years old, so it’s really easy for them to either accept or reject. and then so my first role i was also lucky enough that it was Juliet, so it was really – it’s not easy, but it was EASIER for me to introduce myself to the first audience, but when i got to Cape Town it was a whole new ballgame and they have a much bigger – the company itself is much bigger, and they have a much bigger following and those followers are the ones who grew up with (Margot) Fonteyn and (Rudolf) Nuryev touring, and i think Monica Mason is also like – has got some history with South Africa i don’t know if she was FROM South Africa or, the old time is called Rhodesia and now Zimbabwe, so they have a very close-knit relationship so when i got there of course i work myself up the ranks, so i’ve done a lot of Corp De Ballet work and i’ve done soloist and principal and sometimes mixed all together. and i remember the first time i did Swan Lake, the ballerina went off very suddenly, so then i had one day to get myself ready with her partner, and i was too young to get nervous and when you have a focus you just keep going, you just want to make it work so i was doing it i mean rehearsing, and then went onstage without thinking much, and you know how the white swan goes (music) AND jete and (pose)! and then it’s all silence, and most of the time the audience would clap.- MOST of the time, and i came on as that tiny little thing, came on and i was doing that saturday evening show which is like THE show of the week, so i came on as confident as i could, plonk myself down and all i heard the audience say is ‘ohhh.’ because they all bought tickets to see this beautiful ballerina and in came a fresh person that they don’t, i mean they kind of knew of me but they didn’t, so then i just thought ‘how am i going to take my first step?’because then you feel like you’re this small, so then of course i feel really small because it was such a silence with such despair that they are watching me (instead of someone else), so then as i was thinking ‘okay, i have no choice, i have to take my first step anyways,’ so i took my first step, and then just leads to the next step and i just let the music take me through the journey, and of course it wouldn’t have been a fantastic performance because i had like 24 hours notice, you know, so i think just the fact that i got onto stage and finished the performance that by itself – now that i’ve thought about it, it was a huge accomplishment at the time and i was really young. but if they had a video, then i wouldn’t want to watch myself but at the time i think i did a job that – i pushed myself to the limit, also because i had got that determination and i persevere for the whole performance, i think also then the audience also warmed up to me a little bit so little by little of course then i developed into my own dancer, you know, and then so then i have been very very privileged to have really good houses booked for the performances that my names was on there. and you know when you’re small you don’t expect to see your name up in the box office to say this performance opened and principal dancers you don’t expect your name to be there and the first couple of times it’s quite exhilarating and i never really thought it was a huge achievement because when you see your name up there you actually feel a lot more pressurised to deliver so i was not the type to say ‘oh people clapping!’ i really recieve it with a lot of reservation because i see myself i literally feel all my deliveries so i was never really a 100 percent with any of my performances, so give and take, i would say sometimes i was okay and i felt that went okay, and most of the time myself and my ballet partner onstage Daniel (Rajna) will go back to the dressing room and just like be suicidal and talk about all the things that didn’t go well you know, yeah.
Morgan: how did the experience of moving to South Africa help you develop as a dancer?
Ms. Tracy Li: uhm i have always been quite an independent person but moving away have really made me see how protected i was while i was in Hong Kong. so i think being abroad, i grew up a lot faster as a person and as an artist as well because i don’t have my teacher to run back to and ask questions so i have to actually observe a lot more and push myself to get what people want from me a lot quicker because there is actually no room for error. and so in that sense i think i – also when i got to Cape Town i was also very lucky enough my artistic director then, Veronica Paeper, she loves dramatic ballets and she also nurtured me a lot too, because she sees that (determination) in me, so that she really developed my – i wouldn’t say acting skills, both of us don’t believe in acting, because you don’t want to act out someone else’s story, you want to feel it, so in that sense, she really nurtured me and we worked very closely together for many years and then i think i have kind of developed into – still a classical ballet dancer, but my strength is about interpreting and doing story ballets like even with Don Quixote you just get into that Spanish character, you don’t act like one, you get INTO it, or you do Giselle and you become that demure, beautiful peasant girl and i remember it was really beautiful for someone to say to me – well, before you came onto the stage to do your first step, we had to stand at the backstage and it was a make believe cottage door, so you have to practice many times how to open and close it so that it is your ‘home’ and then they said when you’re standing at the back there you have got to get into her (giselle’s) spirit as Giselle and you’re not saying to yourself “hello I’m here to perform!” you are actually that person, very humble, opening the door and you come on and you just enjoying dancing because you love dancing so much. Giselle as a character and I think that’s really lovely to learn that kind of things and I really learned it in South Africa a lot more because people are more open to give advice and they’re really nurturing and they really supportive and encouraging so in that sense I think moving away from Hong Kong has developed me into a much broader dancer in – well, the technique you can always get better, and then it also goes parallel with my emotion and as a dancer that expresses your or use your artistry to express a lot more.
Morgan: so you mentioned ‘becoming’ a character, how exactly do you do that?
Ms. Tracy Li: it’s hard to explain because I believe that you either have the feeling for it (the character) or you don’t, and that’s why you have got different types of ballerinas. some are very technically correct, and some are more toward the dramatic side, so i would say i have a lot of empathy for people. and i think my strength was understanding what the story is about and i understand people’s life journey very easily and also as you go along you know we – in class, we practice our port de bras, we do the steps and you have the music and in most of the ballets if you do a really good full-length ballet or any ballet that is very meaningful, most of the time you can – or i could make all the steps work with the music so i use the – it’s almost like a graphic line, that goes up and down, down deep and then comes back up different dimensions and different dynamics at times and I tried to mix the two together so I’m not dancing and the music is out there so I move the two together – once you get that, you could feel a little bit more and you feel that it almost seeps into your pores and it comes quite – well you can explore a lot more. and of course, you have to know the history of the story if there is any history, unless it is a new ballet, then it is different, but there is always a plot and you have got to understand the spirit of it so it’s not just a story, you have got to understand the spirit of it – the mannerism of the people it could be in the future or right back in the roman days. it ranges so much that it’s really challenging for one to research a little bit more a get to the bottom of it and then you can start building and don’t stray away from the character or the stories and I think also it’s really hard to explain because it’s all from your heart. and you have got to feel it.
Morgan: that’s very insightful
Ms. Tracy Li: no, i actually don’t think i could explain it i thought it would be easy, but i couldn’t.
Morgan: for young ballerinas considering moving abroad to expand their professional dance experience, what are some things that they should consider?
Ms. Tracy Li: i think first and foremost they need to be very brave and they have to have got that. determination to – not to succeed in a way to make it a huge career to start off with – I think they have got to persevere for whatever that comes as an obstacle along the way and that is much harder and also be prepared to fail in many many areas. and i’m not talking about just in dancing, i’m talking about in everyday life because once you’ve left your hometown, regardless of whether it is Hong Kong, England, it really doesn’t matter. once you’ve left your hometown you are on your own by yourself so you have got to be able to make a judgment to be able to go forward so that you can actually pursue your career and it doesn’t really matter whether it’s ballet or music or anything, and i think that’s very important and sometimes we forget because we’re only going for the goal that ‘i want to join the company’ or ‘ i want to be in this school’, and then you forget in between, there are lots of obstacles that we have to get through before we actually get somewhere and i think that is the most important thing. i think dancing, it comes afterward, because you have done it for so many years, by the time you go abroad, of course, you’ve got all this experience with either exam, or years of training so that becomes your almost like your second language – you don’t have to think much, you just have to find a place for you to do it and then you have got to be adaptable. and you have got to observe a lot more so that you know what is the right thing to do and how you could fit it in a way that with the correct etiquette that suits that company or suit the academy that you’re going into. and i have failed once when I was in Australia i got my scholarship from the jockey club and i went and when I said i failed, it’s that I couldn’t make myself fit into the Australian ballet because i didn’t have the tool to do it at the time i was probably either too young or I just didn’t get it at the time so I count that journey as a failed journey but I have learned so much from that period of time, and when i came back then i got offered a job to join Hong Kong Ballet and I said to myself – and it wasn’t comfortable because when you’re so young and you get a contract into a company besides other people that has got like 3 years of full-time training so you’re actually jumping ahead and of course, you won’t be that popular at times until you have proven that you’re worth it, so that journey was actually as hard as when i was in Australia. but I said to myself “I’m not going to fail this time because I need to fight.” and that’s how, one step at a time, i made myself, not comfortable, but i made myself aware of how it’s not just glory. ok, I’ve got Garry Trinder here, as my mentor, but he’s not giving me special treatment, so that’s how you just roll from one day to the next, yeah.
Morgan: what are some of your most memorable professional travel experiences?
Ms. Tracy Li: that has got to be when Daniel and myself traveled to Miami about – i can’t remember when, but it was a long time ago! when we went to participate in the Miami ballet festival and it was a great experience because we had never met any of the dancers that were dancing there it was all couples from different companies all over the world and we all got together and we all did our own little pieces – I think we all do maybe two pieces of our own work, so it was just great because we should always be learning and not get too stuck and comfortable with where we are and at that time we were kind of very established in a way but we also know that because we are in cape town, South Africa we were a little bit isolated at the time and at that time youtube is not quite there yet, so we really – well, I got my international experience by myself traveling, so but for performing and really being in it with other artists that was a really lovely experience that you meet new people and then you get to chat to each other and then we’re all so normal, you know? we all get nervous before we get onstage so you actually – its kind of a reminder that it’s not just us ourselves but yet we were so encouraging and so supportive of each other and it was just a wonderful experience we have a lot of laughter and we have a lot of fears, and we have lots of sweats and pain and worries but you all get together and the evening was just a blast and it was just really beautiful.
Morgan: since you’ve retired formally from stage, as a mentor to young ballerinas, what are some of your observations?
Ms. Tracy Li: since i retired from stage i actually have stayed on with the company and i have been coaching the principals most of the time because i know the repertoire of dance myself, but during those times i also found out that with most of the younger dancers that just came in to join the company, i think they were a bit lost, and most of the team of course when you could join the company you are on a much higher standard already as a student but then they didn’t realise that when you get into the company, it’s horrible for me to say, but it’s almost like you are a nobody, so from being really nurtured by your teacher into a big company you actually get lost in the company and no one is actually really looking at you so there were many many factors that you could feel very defeated it’s like you’re not noticed, and you are not being helped because you don’t – in a company class or rehearsal, we are seeing so many of the dancers and you will get picked on because you’re the most inexperienced, because you will probably most(ly) be. making. a lot of mistakes – not because you are new, but you WOULD be the one making a lot of mistakes, while other dancers are more experienced than you, so you don’t get to be nurtured per se at the personal level that you need to because you are young and you need more, yet you’re getting a lot less, so it’s really hard psychologically for them to stay focused and stay motivated and inspired so i guess throughout my journey as a principal coach I saw that as a huge area that we need to look after.
Morgan: i also want to get your thoughts on your style as a ballerina – how would. you characterize your style from you starting out to you now?
Ms. Tracy Li: okay when i first started, I think I knew very little about the soul. dancing with your soul. so I actually think that you just go on stage, put a smile on, and do the steps to the music so i was pretty much that type of dancer when i was much younger. and then of course through Garry Trinder and Veronica Paeper I’ve developed into someone that I have mentioned before is more dramatic inclined and still keeping the classical ballet technique, and also when you get to explore a lot more with other choreographers and beautiful choreography, then it’s really lovely to be more versatile, so we’ve developed into a little bit more neoclassical and sometimes contemporary, that i got exposed to which i enjjoyed it but i know i wasnt very good in it so i. didn’t really feel very. comfortable but it was lovely to be able to have that experience now and then also get a different way of feeling in your body and. you can actually incorporate that into your ballet and you feel a little bit more grounded because with neoclassical and contemporary you cannot be uptight all the time you have got to go into the floor a little bit more, which is a beautiful technique that is very seldom experienced when we. are doing classical ballet so that was really lovely so i would say it’s pretty much on parr with either classical or neoclassical and also being dramatic, yeah.
Morgan: i remember when i tried to do contemporary my teacher was telling me that i was too ballerina-like and i needed to ‘let go’ and rather than thinking: up! I needed to be thinking up and down at the same time, but i could never really get to that area of the sweet spot between being grounded but also pulling up so you’re not like jelly.
Ms. Tracy Li: yes, otherwise you’re just like a huge flop into the floor without the shape. but that is the challenge of us finding the contemporary technique with going into the ground, ground yourself in and use the gravity and relax your muscles and then you regain that control of your muscles in a more pliable way. and even – not for you, for professionals, we take a long time, you know, it takes a long time to find that happy medium. so now i have got the opportunity to give the younger lot of dancers a feel of what they should do and i think i am really going to concentrate and focus on nurturing them and mentoring them and i think they have got to understand there are lots of layers that they have to over before they will get noticed and we have to – us as the person who is sitting in front of the studio, we have got to know that they have the determination and they have the hunger to be better and i always think it’s the most important thing for me even now as a teacher and a mentor, as much as (when) i was a dancer, was that i wanted myself to do better than yesterday and I think most of them I need the young dancers to know that I’m not here to make them feel like they are brilliant, but I’m here to make them feel that they can always get better, and without breaking their spirit, you know, we have got to be encouraging, and i think i. feel very strongly its my job to prepare them mentally and technically to grow as an artist or as a performer or as a dancer before they even get somewhere, they need to know there ARE hardships that they have to get through and it’s not all glory that you go in and wear the beautiful costume being onstage and. be fabulous that. is just basically not the reality the reality is how much hard work you’re willing to put in, then you are going to get somewhere. their turn will come but i want them to know that they have to be patient and do what they need to do to get there.
Morgan: THAT is very wise 🙂
Ms. Tracy Li: okay before you start i’m going to SURPRISE you and ask you: what is your vision and what is your desire to go forward from here as far as your ballet path
Morgan: this is a big surprise. uhm, i’m not really sure but i guess for now. i just wanna make sure that i improve in my technique and overall dancing every day and if i backtrack or get worse i wanna be able to recover and keep being able to get better. i would definitely want to go to a school that is. that has a very strong ballet program, but as of right now i don’t know if i wanna be a professional or not but i think ballet will always be something important to my life.
Ms. Tracy Li: i think that’s very good because you have got to feel your way and find your way and i think you know the best thing is not being scared to fail, that’s why it is so good that you say you just want to improve every day and that is basically the air that you have to breathe in in order for you to keep going everyday life and in ballet you just have to practice every day and if you fall over you do it again and it you fall over you do it again until it becomes natural to you so i think that’s great.
Morgan: thank you for doing this interview with me, it was a pleasure. i think a lot of viewers and myself will take away some of the things that you’ve told us today so thank you.
Ms. Tracy Li: thank you for having me!
Bye!
Dance Domain 